Member of the EVE Tweet Fleet

Thursday, October 21, 2010

Drama Llama

  It has reared its head.

  I logged in today to find one of my channels blinking. Switching over to it, I found the beginning of a debate. The channel was created by one of our own long ago to facilitate a wormhole group. This is the channel I got into my first wormhole from and all other since. The channel has been debated over before but it seems this time, a thread has arisen with the staff talking about us. Specifically, about shutting us down. I do not have all the specifics yet, because I don't have access to the thread. But this obviously affects me directly.

  Now before I get into it, let me state things clearly. I understand Uni stances on SPS (semi permanent squads) and the rationale behind things like that. They don't want elitist groups forming and cliques to break off within the corporation. Functions must be open to all. I get that and I get why. That's not my issue.

  We are not elitist. We are not shut off from the rest of the Uni and to try to shut down a private channel makes me twitchy. The discussion got heated both ways, but we are a mature group and the arguing was actually pretty constructive. We do not discourage new players. Heck, my first wormholing experience was from that channel, a C3 when I had never gone into a wormhole and my fit was sad. But I was encouraged and others have mentioned similar experiences. The channel is not set up to divide ourselves. The channel is set up so that a WH fleet can be assembled easily, quickly, and even include members not in our corporation. If you call for a fleet in the channel designated for fleets, which we have said perhaps we should, we will have to deny everyone that wants to come in a frig or cruiser and take time explaining why, still to be called elitist. The very nature of wormholes demands a certain skillset. Yes, C1 and C2s are much more lenient and easier to handle for newer players. But for many runs, you need to be able to fit a T2 tank and fly a battlecruiser and be ready to go.

  In no way do we hide ourselves. The very existence has been talked about multiple times in other channels, and people interested have been directed to it. We are the worst kept secret, if we are to be called one. The channel exists, in an unofficial capacity despite efforts to the contrary, to facilitate the education of pilots interested in wormhole space. That, I think, is well worth preserving. Not only that but the channel has donated percentages to the Uni as a whole, over 1 billion if I remember correctly. Yes, what evil elitist pigs we are. It has cost the Uni nothing and gained much for those that want it. It is not of the Uni, so I fail to see how it falls under Uni jurisdiction. Again, I know how directors function. I know it's a benevolent dictatorship. I know I can leave, and I intend to when my current training finishes. That was already planned before this event, mind you.

  To bring down the hammer on a group of mature and helpful pilots whose intentions coincide with the University policies is sad to me. If it is an issue of being official, then make us official. Give us a director, do whatever you need to cut red tape. If it is an issue of availability, like I said before we are open to everyone. Perhaps we can start calling for fleets in the channel designated for them. But it is ultimately up to the FC who goes and who doesn't. We could certainly put a Wiki article up for the channel and what is expected for operations. I don't see why not. The other exploration channel failed to be the same environment for one reason or another, so why is it such an issue that we have successfully done so?

  But my issue is that this problem arose, not from directorship, but someone who complains that we are a SPS. Directors are aware of us and even have mod access to the channel. Concerns were apparently raised on us apparently being a "clique" and thus bad for the Uni, that we are diverting talents away from a different exploration channel and are not making our experience available to that channel, we SEEM to be closed to noobs, and that we don't appear useful to the Uni....

  Quite frankly, I hate drama. And this is needless, pointless drama. I'm not rage quitting, I'm not saying how unfair anything is. I simply think this is a bit ridiculous and going a bit far in the name of internet spaceships. Forbidding me from using a channel that is open to all draws a line, if it does get drawn. I don't get the beef, but whatever. I am proud to be a Unista and I have made some great friends in that channel. We will be presenting a reasonable solution that hopefully is considered before deciding to just bring down the hammer. Let's make this work.

  To quote a comment in the channel: "If you want to bake a cake, you don't turn up the heat in your whole house. WHClub is big enough to have a wide knowledge spread, and small enough to be friendly."

  So what do you say, can we bake together on this?



Beanard said...

Is this Exploration.E-Uni? Other than the public channel I don't bother logging into *.E-Uni unless I have a specific question so miss most of this stuff.

Ardent Finder said...

No, it's not Exploration.E-UNI, it's a different one. Mem didn't mention it, so I won't, but ask around and you'll find it.
This is an excellent examination of the situation, and should be recommended reading for all Unistas interested in the workings of the Uni and long-term policies.
Precedent is important, and the directorship is always VERY cautious in making decisions with the potential impact of this one. So, I'm optimistic that this will be handled in an acceptable fashion.
End wall of text. :P

Viperous Stark said...

I assume the channel in question is Wormhole Club? I was directed to this channel months ago when I was interested in wormholes and looking for more information. I never viewed it as a private exclusive channel when I was in it and didn't realize other people viewed it that way. Wormhole Club is the same as Loo Operations IMO. Loo Operations is a "private" channel for to chat and find out additional information about industry. I stay in there and industry.e-uni and see no problem with wormhole club. WH by nature require a larger Skillset then the beginning uni pilot can muster, and having a channel where people who are ready for WHs to form up is not an issue (assuming that the channel is open for others to join).

Hope that the Directorate doesn't close it down.

TheWarpGhost said...

Without the WHC I wouldn't have had even the limited experiences of W-space I have currently. Exploration.E-Uni simply isn't up to the task of handling WH's, they are not something that can just be lumped in with K-space exploration. Just look at the number of different classes that need to be dedicated to them! Plus the whole atmosphere of the .E-Uni channels just... doesn't really work for WHs; I've found even Missions.E-Uni of dubious value when I'm in Aldrat, and almost useless elsewhere (which is where my missions are). Plus on spider fleets I'm always being accused of freeloading because I have lvl4s but don't have the skills to blitz them in minutes. And the WHC is considered exclusive?

Memoocan said...

Great responses guys, thanks so much. Yes, it is the Wormhole Club. I have no problem letting people know where there's a resource available to them. Anyone interested can avail themselves of the pilots and their knowledge. It's a very community based area and we love helping noobs into wormholes. I remain optimistic, but with the stamping out of the Caldari channel, I have doubts. To my understanding, the password for the channel is twofold: to keep relative security for operations that are dangerous as it is and to also make sure those that seek us out are not just doing a drive by lurking. They want to learn and we want to teach. This is how I got started so I would like to see it continue in the same mature fashion.
As the thread is for staff only, this is my avenue of debate.
Thanks again guys :)

Nevore said...

Well, I for one had never heard of it, but I'd be interested in it.

While I'm not accussing the group of being secretive, perhaps the fact that it isn't widely advertised is the problem?

For example I'm in a small group that are moving ourselves out to 0.0, though we're pretty embryonic right now and the current faildecs are setting back our schedule.

Perhaps that could be part of the solution. Make it more overtly open and welcoming, maybe run the occassional advertised fleet op, like the EDROP one currently planned. While I understand there's a specific skillset needed, there's no reason that that can't be adhered to.

Memoocan said...

I've often seen the channel name mentioned in Uni channels and I think the Uni needs to give more WH classes. After each class, the channel was offered to the class, giving a good segue from class to real application. We could certainly be more visible, but its not my brainchild so how it goes isn't really up to me.

Nevore said...

I've attended a few WH classes and honestly can't remember it being mentioned, or in any of the channels.

Whose brainchild is it? This kind of links in to some talk on the forum regarding a solo/dueling channel/group that was being mooted. Past attempts had always fallen away because no one felt they "owned" the project and thus had no right to be promoting it etc.

It's a cagey area for the Uni I guess, while EDROP are on good terms now, as far as I know there was some bad blood over it at the time and the Directors don't want a repeat performance.

Probably the best solution would be to make it a wormholes.e-uni chat, or keep the current name but "advertise" it a bit better, maybe get it into some of the wikis and chat channel refs.

L'ouris said...

ok... call me dumb but:

What exactly are these "advanced" skill sets needed for wormhole ops?

I understand that the sleepers hit hard. ( Lost my first heron to a Sleeper in the first three days I think ). But honestly, blob the WH.

I'm not convinced that ANY aspect of Eve is the exclusive domain of high SP characters.

Whats the worst case for a T1 frigate blob getting blown to pieces in a wormhole? lots of pretty explosions?

Memoocan said...

With respect, you cannot attack Sleepers in T1 frigs. That is alot of needless losses because they cannot handle waves of damage from Sleepers. I'm not saying high SP. I only have 6 mil SP and its mainly in industry. What you need to be able to field, and here I am referring to Class 3s since you can do C1 and 2s in cruiser packs, is a battlecruiser with a T2 tank. The Drake is a fast and easy train for this. But you also have to remember, the point of a WH op is the ISK. Why blob something and make no money with so many shares, than take a few hard hitters and make good money in a few hours?

I will refer you to the Uniwiki itself:

That section and others easily show why you cannot go in frigs. And again, I never said I'm opposed to newbies in cruisers, as long as they are open to learning and can fly in the lower class WHs without needlessly exploding. It's 0.0 sec space, vulnerable to ganking and many newer players don't want to risk what is their highest value asset. For those that do, I'm all for having them along, it's a great experience.

Hope that answers it :)

L'ouris said...

"But you also have to remember, the point of a WH op is the ISK. Why blob something and make no money with so many shares, than take a few hard hitters and make good money in a few hours?"

^^ Hate to say it... but this statement reads to me like the reason the Uni wouldn't appreciate the independant clubs.

Wormhole ops are one of the few things allowed during war that allows folks to stay in corp, on that char, and make ISK.

When you are talking about excluding folk just because their ship blows up....and your not forced to share bounties ( none on sleepers if I read right ), you are talking about an unneccessary seperation of Unista's.

Why NOT take along some suicide newbies so they can make some cash? People often drag along week old characters in salvage ships for missions that would destroy them too?

I'm sure I'm missing some nuance, but the 'you must be this high to fly in a wormhole' just seems like a load of posturing.

Memoocan said...

The service WHClub renders to the Uni is quite valuable and frankly, it is not of the Uni. Forbidding a player to use any venue but a Uni sanctioned one is a bit arrogant.

How is taking their ship in only to explode going to be a useful experience? They can come as salvagers, they can come as scouts, if they really want to they can come to blow up. If people want to blob a WH for a class as a learning experience, then why not. But there is no point going into a WH just to die. All I'm saying is that it is the FC's choice and like it or not, and this applies to other corps that run WHs, they won't end up going until they can contribute effectively. Those are for regular operations.

I'm not sure how to explain that we ARE open to everyone and we are certainly willing to help and teach and have quite a bit. There's no intended separation. It's a platform to allow easy, quick access to a community that trusts and knows one another. There's nothing saying other people can't come into that community.

L'ouris said...

I don't mean to offend Memo.

Frankly, I never heard of the other channel before reading your post, and I'm sure life would continue as normal for me if I hadn't.

My particular curiosity was about the mentality that only a certain type of skill set is helpful to achieve a given end.

Eve has a history of showing that there are many ways to accomplish any given task.

As far as the chat room goes, I simply mentioned that the concept of a seperate community is exactly what the Uni has mentioned being non-aligned with their goals, and thus on their radar.

Memoocan said...

I know, I'm happy to discuss.

We don't advertise regularly, no, but we certainly don't try to stay secret. Our mentality is only to help and educate as well as make a profit. My hope is that we can finally become official with the Uni, since we have tried before. Wormholes are a beast unto themselves. There are certainly many different ways, but people find a way that works and generally stick to it. If the Uni wants to encourage WH activity and educating students, but then shut down a group doing just that, I get confused. The WHC is a mix of Unistas as well as anyone +5 and up to the Uni, so it's more a conglomeration that is available to the Uni at present.

And to answer your question Nevore, James Arget is the de-facto head of the WHC and his brainchild. I am only a participant, so my views are not necessarily his own nor anyone else in the channel.

Memoocan said...

Simply put, the standard for wormholes is in place for the good of the ones running and the good of the Uni. The Uni doesn't allow pilots to fly BCs during war without a T2 tank and rigs. Is it somehow elitist to have that? No, it is to prevent needless losses and has nothing to do with someone being a "noob" in PvP. Are standards elitest? In a fleet, your fleetmates are responsible for your wellbeing just as you are for theirs, so a certain skillset IS needed. Anyone can train them up, so how are we stopping anyone from coming into wormholes with us? We are providing a community that bases around wormholes and is open to ALL, even if not everyone knows about it yet.

/end wall of text